We use this this to demonstrate the process of using illustrations and creative imagery to explain complex topics to children and other non-technical people.

Watch the recording of the full, unedited workshop here.

Today's Guest
Miriam Tocino
Twitter: @miriamtocino or @zerusandona
Email: miriam@zerusandona.com

Resources

• Free Zerus & Ona Binary Carnival Card Game
• 16% discount code on book purchases from zerusandona.com: TINYDEVOPS
• Avital Tzubeli
  LinkedIn: tzubeli
• Katie Cunningham
  Research article: Avoiding the Turing Tarpit: Learning Conversational Programming by Starting from Code's Purpose
  Video: Avoiding the Turing Tarpit: Learning Conversational Programming by Starting from Code's Purpose
  Twitter: @katieirenec

Transcript

Automated Voice: Ladies and gentlemen, the tiny DevOps guy. [music]

Jonathan Hall: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Tiny DevOps. The show where we believe you don't need 1,000 engineers to do world-class DevOps. I'm your host, Jonathan Hall. Today, we're doing a replay of an interactive YouTube Livestream I did a few weeks ago with children's author, Miriam Pacino. Although parts of it were visual at the time, I don't think that will detract too much. If you're just listening to this, I hope you enjoy.

I have with me today, Miriam Pacino. I called her-- I sent her a message, I asked her if she would join me on my podcast as a guest to talk about the work she does. She's a children's author. She writes books about technology for children and I thought it would be great to have her on my podcast to talk about communicating with children especially those of us who have children. it's difficult to maybe describe our daily work to our children. She said, "No, I don't want to be in your podcast, I want to do a live webinar instead or a live workshop." Here we are. [chuckles]

Miriam: That's what I say. [chuckles]

Jonathan: Here we are, we're going to do a workshop here but before we do that, Miriam, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, and maybe why you know something about communicating with children about computers?

Marian: Okay, first of all, thank you for having me, Jonathan, this is going to be so fun. Okay, you know how our children are growing up surrounded by technology and it is everywhere. They feel naturally attracted to it from a very young age, but they know very, very, very little about what's behind it. How could we introduce them into the world of technology in a way that is easy and accessible so they have a more active relationship with the world of technology, and at the same time, it is fun and exciting and everyone gets these little bumps in the inside of them when talking about it?

As parents, I think it's our responsibility to share with them what technology is and how it works. It is part of their upbringing, it is not only more about something that they are not going to see in their whole life, but it is, as I said, it is everywhere, it is our responsibility to grab these in the hands and say what's inside and how it works. The reason is, and we know this as tech people here that understanding computers is a superpower.

It is a powerful tool that will help them express themselves and create their own world in whatever way they choose. Not all of them need to become a programmer but that little understanding will be-- it can become an important part of our lives.

That's why it is important that we come up with ways to reach them and inspire their curiosity and make them excited about it. Four years ago, when I had my baby, I have a little boy, I started thinking about how I'd like to introduce him to the world of computers, to the world of technology. I've been working as a software developer myself and also as a programming teacher for several years. I wanted to bring some of the elements that are used in my teaching into people's homes and help them open up the conversation around technology.

One night, well, my whole vision [unintelligible 00:03:17] like just to give people an idea. I sat down and I said, "Miriam, how can I get-- how can you get parents talking about technology in bed with their children, to make them curious about it and create an emotional connection with computers?" My whole point was, we were surrounded by children's books about farms and animals. I bet you know what I'm talking about. I said, "Look, they are all surrounded by technology, cannot we just switch between those books, and then one day, we read them about animals and farms and then the other day, we read them about computers to bring that at the same level."

One night together with my husband, who is a game programmer, we started saying, "Wouldn't it be cool if [unintelligible 00:03:59] stories happening inside a computer, about how computers, the math or graphics or how the internet works? what if they were told by a zero and a one, and they could live in the binary world?" That's how our [unintelligible 00:04:11] were born. They are the main two characters of a picture book series that I write and illustrate. They receive one on one and with red pockets and they live inside their computers.

Jonathan: I own a couple copies of your books and they're beautifully illustrated. They're fun stories and your shining personality shows through in the books too, it's great.

Miriam: Let's begin. these two that you're seeing here, I thought [unintelligible 00:04:41] remember? they are the ones with the red pockets, zero is a zero or nicer one and they are a boy and a girl. Everybody can identify with the characters and this is the binary world inside your computer, together with a lot of the-- that's where they live and with a lot of zeros and ones, that's how they spend their days.

These zeros and ones are also known as bits and they make sure that our computers, our tablets, or phones, work, and know-how to do all the amazing things that they do.

Here's the thing, reading [unintelligible 00:05:17] is just the beginning. What I want to help you with is to create at home and imaginarium inside computers, where you can make up your own stories, and guide the characters as you want. I believe that's where the magic happens because that's when we do it with them and that's when we create that emotional connection that I was talking about before. That's actually why I proposed Jonathan to do rehearse with you today and create a little story together. Because this is not the first channel, I thought we could talk about servers.

I remember the first time that Jonathan and I connected to prepare for the workshop, you mentioned that part of your job is low balancing MYSQL servers. That's what you said?

Jonathan: Yes, that's right.

Miriam: Okay. when I heard that those were the words in our conversation that I said, "Okay, we need to do something about that." A mind that you've been working for that day and then you fill openings in MySQL servers and your little one comes in says, "What did you do to that today, dad? What do you do that today, mom? Especially as parents in tech, we have the possibility of turning that moment into something that they can bring with them and remember for the rest of their lives. I said, "Okay, what if we turn the answer into a story?" That's what we're trying to do at home at the moment with our four-year-old.

It is magical to see what those tiny moments that in another scenario, they wouldn't be anything, like they turn in that inspire-- they turn into those inspiring moments with their kid and he starts jumping, he starts running, he starts putting his hands out and having all these crazy ideas. We're seeing in real life that this is working, right?

Tips for creating an awesome story. First, you start with something that they already know and that they can relate to, that's very important. If you say, "Hey, I've been load balancing MYSQL servers, okay."

You keep that in mind, and say, "How can I bring these into something that my kids [unintelligible 00:07:34] for the past two days?" I thought about this example of load balancing and doing some research on it and thinking about what is the experience that they had case, my child, Kay had, that is close to make the topic? I thought, there was a time two days ago when he sent a voice message to his best friend, Alvaro, and he wanted him to come to play and I said, "Okay, why don't you send this message, this voice message, I give you the phone and then send it to him, click send and then Alvaro will get the message." He came to play. And I say, "Remember that voice message that you sent to Alvaro, where did that go?"

Maybe he has already some ideas because we've been implementing these ideas as slowly, little by little. He already knows who [unintelligible 00:08:35] where they live and all the things that they do. It might be that he already says that but otherwise, I'd say, "Look, maybe it was [unintelligible 00:08:43]" and we'll take it from here. He often has very crazy ideas. I'd say [unintelligible 00:08:53] Okay, so that's it. That's the first step, try to look for that connection that they say "Oh, so they can bring it-- Then the nice thing, it's like, next time that they sent a voice message to Alvaro, it say like, "Hey, let's call [unintelligible 00:09:11] so they can bring and you make it more relatable. [unintelligible 00:09:15]

Okay, now that you connected the story with something that your child can relate to, you need some characters, you need a place, and here's the beginning of a possible story that I brainstormed yesterday. My characters, [unintelligible 00:09:32], that plays a cloud server, we said we're going to talk about servers. the beginning of the story could be something like, "Owner just received a new voice message. What should we do about it? What should we do with it? Then Owner like, " Give me a nanosecond server," because time goes very fast inside your computer.

"I'm balancing my load," and then she's trying to handle all those requests that maybe-- just start introducing some requests, and this is what we're going to do.

First, it comes a moment with the brainstorming. We're going to do some brainstorming together and coming up with different ideas about what's going on, actually, and what's the trip that voice message makes, from the moment that K sends it via my phone, and lands in other spheres.

Then we have six pages of a book to sketch together, but first, let's start with some brainstorming. Some prompts that I prepared are where does your voice message, go after you hit send on your phone? Does it go into space, or maybe the internet? Then that prompt only can lead you to an amazing storage, or you go on and just say, "What's in there a server farm? If you want to introduce the idea of servers and load balancing from the back of my mind."

Jonathan: Okay, yes.

Miriam: Is there someone waiting for your request, and if yes, who's that?

Jonathan: Okay.

Miriam: Okay. so, here is where I need your help.

Jonathan: All right, because you are the expert here.

Miriam: The question is what happens when you hit send on your voice message, where is the first place it goes, right?

Jonathan: Yes, exactly.

Miriam: There's going to be a server-

Jonathan: There's going to be a server.

[crosstalk]

Jonathan: -again. There's a server somewhere that receives that message. Its job is basically to capture that message, and then send it on somewhere else to probably another server. It's going to capture that message, make sure it's received and that they got the whole thing and not just the first 10 seconds, for example, the whole thing.

Then it will try to send it on to the-- well, it depends which application we're using. If you're using WhatsApp, for example, then WhatsApp controls the entire connection. It receives the connection, it receives the message, and then it will attempt to contact the recipient's telephone, make sure it's online. If it is, then it will send the message to that person. If they're not online, it will hold that message for indefinitely until we come back online again.

Miriam: Okay, so there is a server. Let's say then that the first thing, it's a phone, right, it goes up from my phone, from the phone, it goes to the server, right?

Jonathan: Correct.

Miriam: What's in the server?

Jonathan: Hard drives, CPUs, it's a really expensive computer, like the one you have at home, it's like your MacBook or your desktop computer, but a really expensive version, it is probably much louder and faster.

Miriam: Okay, question here because I've done some research. Is there a load balancer?

Jonathan: Probably, almost certainly. In this case, there's going to be, yes, a load balancer, there's probably 100s if not 1,000s of actual servers that are waiting to receive your voice message.

Miriam: Okay, so here's Kay, right.

Jonathan: Yes.

Miriam: Kay, sends out a voice message, and then it lands somewhere that we're going to call a load balancer.

Jonathan: Yes.

Miriam: Yes.

Jonathan: The load balancer won't store the voice message. It just redirects the request to the server that stores it. The load balancer gets the request. It says, "Oh, there's a voice message from whomever; we need to choose a server and send it there." Now you have your six servers there, and you're going to send it to one of them.

Miriam: Okay. Then the load balancer it can be like, traffic cop. Like, he's the one redirecting, and then there's server farm, I call it server pool. When we talked about it, I said, "Jonathan, I like the farm analogy because then one night you read about farms and animals, and then there's also the server farms that kids can relate to."

Jonathan: I don't know if you invented the term server farm, or if you found it that that's a common term that we use in the industry.

Miriam: I found it like during my research, and then it clicked and I said, "Hey, we're going to go for that."

Jonathan: Good.

Miriam: Someone in the chat said in the load balancer there's a bit that is an operator telling other beats where to go. That can be it and maybe those if there's an owner that's where the beginning of the story for me was like, "Hey, owner was balancing the load," right?

Jonathan: Yes, perfect.

Miriam: The load is all-- like K, there are a lot of other keys, like sending all those voice messages into the thing. Okay, once we have the server farm, once the request landed one of our servers, where did that go?

Jonathan: That server is going to hold it until it's done delivering. The server is then going to try to connect to the-- what was the friend's name again?

Miriam: Alvaro.

Jonathan: Alvaro, so it's going to try to contact Alvaro's phone. If Alvaro, maybe he's sleeping and his phone is turned off, so it cannot connect. It's just going to hold that message until he wakes up and turns his phone on again.

Miriam: Okay. here's Alvaro, it can be in it, the message, just stay here for a little while. Then, the server is the one sending, let's call it a response, like that's a response instead of coming back to you it's going to somewhere else, right?

Jonathan: Technically, there's two requests into responses in this. There's probably much more than that, but two that we care about. When your son sends a message, that's the request, of course, and the server will send a response that says, "Okay, I got your message. You can trust me; I will deliver it." If you're using WhatsApp, you'll see that that checkmark, right? that little gray checkbox says the server received the response.

Miriam: Okay, so there is a response coming back to Kay-

Jonathan: Yes.

Miriam: -and there is a response going in back to Alvaro.

Jonathan: Then the server makes a new request to Alvaro. It says, "I have something for you, okay? The server sends a request to Alvaro says, "I have a message for you." If Alvaro's phone responds and says, "Yes, I'm ready." Then it will send the message, and then the phone eventually will say, "Thank you, I got the entire message." That's the response to the server. The server when it gets that response and says, "Okay, I delivered the message. I can delete the copy I have, but I'm going to send a new response to Kay that says, make that check mark blue now."

Miriam: Okay, awesome. I think this is a great example, and also kids will relate to that. Also, I like what Andrea says in the chat. She says that it's an orchestra director, that can also be it.

Jonathan: Oh, that's great. Yes.

Miriam: Instead of a server, it's an orchestra director, and then--

Jonathan: We use the term "server orchestration".

Miriam: Okay, this was meant to be. we could have even like an orchestra director, taking care of a server farm. Then we have two different things that kids can relate to because then it's like you're doing music with your code. I like that analogy because also there is a lot of going on between music and programming and how programming is music and all those people will be very happy [unintelligible 00:17:55] example. Then, but the farm also makes it relatable with the kids.

Let's go for an orchestra director. Once we know-- okay, so we brainstorm, what's going on the different elements that we're going to have in the story. Then I come here and I said, like, "Okay, I would say maybe our story can start in the load balancer." How's the load balancer, what is it?

Jonathan: Physically, it's another server.

Miriam: It's another server.

Jonathan: It's servers all the way down.

Miriam: What we said that they are also like orchestra directors.

Jonathan: Yes, orchestra director or traffic cops; we can either way.

Miriam: They are the traffic cops, but I'd say okay, maybe we started like, in the left is zeros, and in the right, it's owner. Okay? maybe, and then owner, if she's like, balancing those loads, she's maybe here, and then it's just moving a lot. Then there was as well faders maybe has, like, how would you say that in English? What do you use to play music?

Jonathan: A baton.

Miriam: Yes, a baton. Okay, so maybe Perris is the one with a baton, and then owner is dancing, like handling all those requests. maybe all those requests are landing to her. She has many different-- that would be something right, that you can-- then also, what I tried to do with all the stories with Kay is to make them very physical. Because then, when kids move, right, and then he would start doing like this, and then he's, "I'm handling requests, I'm handling requests, I'm handling requests" that makes a connection with a whole lot of story.

Okay, so what are those requests? In my books, sometimes they are paper planes. It's data and information other times are envelopes.

Jonathan: If we're talking about WhatsApp, I don't know if we are but if we're talking on WhatsApp, then they're probably text messages in audio files, right? Maybe a post-it note or an envelope, anything you could write some information on, I suppose, would work, right?

Miriam: That's nice. I like the reason behind me drawing is normally as paper planes. It's because how sometimes you were writing messages in those, and then you made a paper and then send it to your friend liking. Okay, and then what happens?

Jonathan: She needs to take those post-its and send them to her. Are we still calling it a server farm? she needs to send those to the to the different barns, so to speak, hire for our farmers arranged. He needs to say, "This post-it needs to go to barn number one, this goes to barn number two, and so on and so forth."

Miriam: So then maybe this is [inaudible 00:20:47] and this is [inaudible 00:20:48] right? Then maybe there are like little cards that they can put at the kid. Maybe they still don't know where they are. The way they're going. Then here we maybe see one of those databases big, and then here it says, "Okay, the case voice message" or something that's where your-- we have half the story.

Jonathan: We have half. We're ready for the climax now.

Miriam: Exactly. Pass the bus, the half of the story is the climax. Okay, so now the server, okay. what's the server? How's the server look like? How would you say, "Okay, what's the server like?"

Jonathan: In this case with the voice message, the main task of the server is to store the message until it's delivered. It's not doing data processing per se. It's not transforming the message. That all happens in some cases, if we're talking about Amazon would be processing your credit card transaction, we're not doing that here. We're just storing a message until it can be delivered. it's almost like a silo or a barn where you store some hay or some grain or something like that, or a basket of apples or whatever analogy you want to use.

Miriam: Okay. I have an idea. Maybe this is the self-directed trolley with that voice message in here. I need Lansing to a room where there are more baits, right? Those are the ones doing those tasks. Okay. Then the voice message lands here, and then these are the zeros and ones. Maybe I'm just thinking maybe if Alvaro is sleeping, and he's sleeping, I mean you get the message?

Jonathan: What the server will do is it will try periodically to talk to Alvaro. It'll try immediately. If he doesn't respond, it'll try again in five minutes, if it doesn't respond maybe 10 minutes, it'll try every few minutes to see if he's there.

Miriam: When you go to places where there are a lot of mountains, and then sometimes there is this place that you stop with the car, to watch the views, then maybe there is such a place. Each of them is in charge of one of these airplanes, paper planes. Then they say, "Okay, I'm sending it." Then this page is the whole story about that paper plane, going in and going back. This can be a very nice place. How are we going to finish the story? Let's finish the story that Álvaro got the message, and then they're playing.

I thought then maybe that beat, it goes through a whole day. It's starts here in the morning, and then again, he's doing something else and he tried and he's doing something else and he tried and the clock is ticking until he sent it. Then he's here happy and jumping in because the message just landed.

Jonathan: That's my 20-minute timer, how perfect is that?

Miriam: How perfect is that? Okay, this could be a story. Yes. The whole point about this exercise is that in my [unintelligible 00:24:13] to do this with kids, right? We've done it here, with some help from the chat and, in my end, what kids can make out of this. I've been in many workshops like these already, and sometimes we end up drawing dinosaurs, right? Travel around computers, and then they have like a magic hat that pushes one button or pushes the other one. Then the computer goes dark or the computer goes loud and there's fireworks and it can be whatever, right?

At the end of the day, that's fun. What excites me about this and I'm seeing it like live with my kids, right? You completely changed the relationship that they have with technology. It's not anymore about this thing that they consume, we help them slowly to see themselves as creators as well.

to give them a sense of belonging that this is fun, and this is something for them. Here's my hope that this helps you to create that connection with your little ones and also to do it night by night, story by story, right? You never know if you're seeding something there that it's going to flourish.

There was this game that families loved to play together during the workshops that I do with them. I do workshops with families and kids about between four and six and we've read the book together, and also, we play a game later on right away that helped them to learn how to count in binary and with kids that are as small as three years old, four years old right away.

You can download it for free at: pattersonona.com/tinydevops and download the PDF, play the game together and speak like computer. It comes with instructions and all that you need to print it out at home and start playing right away. It is a great compliment to the books, and I usually do both in one state with the kids. first, we read the first book in the series, which is Welcome To Our World, and then right away they say, "Hey, do you want to talk like computers? Let's go do that, and go play the game."

If you want to get the books, you can order a signed copy at pattersonona.com and use TINYDEVOPS in capital letters for a 60% discount worldwide. If you prefer, you can get the paperback edition via Amazon and some other online bookstores. The books favors is already in four languages. Two books are out. The third one is coming into three months. There's a fourth one coming which I'm very excited about, which is going to be like a dictionary. It's going to be like a thick one, and it's going to have like tons of stories. Every page is going to be at one big room inside the computer and [unintelligible 00:27:04] are doing something. Every night you go to the book, you open the page and you see what [unintelligible 00:27:11] have been doing for the whole day.

Thank you so much for having me, Jonathan for the people in the chat.

Jonathan: Thank you for joining.

Miriam: You want to sound for the people, for the people who will see these 20 years from now, if you enjoyed these as much as I did and you'd like to say hello, I'm on Twitter @mirriamtosino and at [unintelligible 00:27:32], and I'm also in LinkedIn. I also love email, if you send me a line at-- throw me a line at miriam@ [unintelligible 00:27:41].com, I'd love to connect.

Jonathan: Wonderful. I have a question right off the top. What if you're trying to tell a story about load balancing and your child gets distracted about a dinosaur and they completely just derail the explanation. What do you? Do you just go with it and have a good time, or do you try to bring them back in? No, that's not how it works. Yes. The dinosaur doesn't beat the computer and stop on the Lego's they're delivering a message. What, do you do or has that never been an issue?

Miriam: It's never been an issue, but these touch base with something that I, asked also quite usually, which is how educative should this be? It is my experience as a learner, my whole life that I only learn what I'm passionate about. I think that [unintelligible 00:28:44] should serve to get them passionate about.

Jonathan: The details work themselves out later; focus on the passion.

Miriam: I think so especially in younger ages. I do a lot of research about this because the project touches base with the lack of diversity in tech, and in other stem. I get a lot of parents get into me with six-year-old daughters saying, "Look, she already thinks that computers and robots and the stem subjects are for boys and they are not for them."

I believe that [unintelligible 00:29:24] focuses on those on that age range. You're going to start with kids as two, to sing the song, to see the pictures, to give them that sense of belonging that this is for them. The sense of belonging comes when you let them dream about it, however, they want. It's this imaginary where they can create whatever they want. Of course, you can be educative at some point, and [inaudible 00:30:00] are educative in the sense that look there is zero and a one living inside your computer in the binary. There are many parents out there that they even don't know that. I said, "Okay. Me having worked as a software developer and as a programmer for grownups, I was preparing people for tech jobs before I was doing that. How complex does this need to be?" I could have made-- I spent a lot of my time thinking about these things when it started with [unintelligible 00:30:27], as it relates to your question. Quick answer is focused on getting them passionate about cultivating that curiosity.

At the end, I think they will be the ones learning by themselves, especially in the world that-- what we need to do to teach is a way of learning rather than to teach.

Jonathan: How can we apply these same principles when we're talking to other less children, less-- more adult non-technical people? It could be maybe your boss, or your spouse, or a colleague, or just somebody in a party. That's what you do for a living? You say, "I work with load balancing servers." We don't want to go so low that we're talking about boomerangs, but we don't want to go so high that we're still talking about TCP/IP networking stacks.

What do we do or maybe you have some resources that you could point us to that could help somebody who's struggling with this?

Miriam: Here, I want to say that-- Okay. I'm coming from a very visual background. I'm a very visual person. When I enter software development, I needed a visual way to get into it. Having worked in those environments, later on, I can see that there is a need for more visually [laughs] package information. If you link a visual approach with the storytelling, you wonder people.

I say maybe you could stop in the doodling phase that we did in the beginning. You could always take a pen, even if people say like, "But I'm not an artist. I don't draw and--?" It's better than nothing. I've seen-- I've worked in companies where you could see-- this breaks my heart because you could see people that they were feeling insecure because they didn't get the technical aspects right.

Then they had to depend on those developers that were building the things for them. There's no need for that. You developer out there, tech person, get up and get an old book, get a paper and get over your insecurity as well of not being able to explain that thing and work together. There is a big space in the tech industry for storytelling. It would benefit us all if we start to tell some stories. How same principles apply, you start with something that they can relate to. Otherwise, if you start with like, "No, it's low balancing, it's called load balancing." That's not a big idea.

"You remember when you sent that thing to that thing? Okay. Here's what happened," and your explanation was great. It was like, "You can call me, I'd be happy to sketch it for you. if you can do it yourself, that impromptu meeting, I think that's amazing." That would be amazing. That would make the industry much more inclusive because you are making those tiny steps. Each of us it's in our power to make those tiny steps to make computers and technology less magic. You asked in your email for the preparation about a couple of resources related to this. I said, "Okay. I'm going to mention a couple of them which caught my eye lately."

"One of them is that-- because again, I believe that the industry could use-- with benefit a lot from adding a little bit of a storytelling." Also, because normally with a storytelling, there's this fun and more laid-back environment, and we could all benefit from that as well. For that, I like to refer to a couple of-- I'm looking for them, a couple of resources. The first one is the work that [unintelligible 00:34:46] if I'm pronouncing that right. The work that she's doing, she's a tech storytelling trainer, which I was like, "Does that even exist?" It looks like that.

Then what she does, she gave a workshop in the last conference that I talked to a couple of weeks ago in Mayor on Rails. It was a workshop of how to tell your story about tech. The second one, it came out this week. Her name is Katie Cunningham. She's a researcher from Chicago and she presented her paper called learning conversational programming by starting from coats purpose.

What she does is that she brings up another way to teach programming to their learners. She worked with a group of people. She calls these learners, conversational programmers, which is similar to what we're talking about here. Which is like those people that care more about what code can achieve, that's how a programming language works, we can also share the link to the paper. She has had you to feed you as well that you may [unintelligible 00:36:02]

She focuses on the coat purpose, which is you could also call the cold story. That's why it's made me think about my days as a teacher, because I used to say every time that we were debugging a program together, and with some of the students, I would normally say, "Okay. Let's step out of your computer. Tell me the story that you're writing." I did that all the time. "Who is that person? Who is this person coming? Where's this person coming from? Where's this person going?"

Then once we had this story line up, in words, we'll jump into the computer, we look at the code that she's written. I said, "Look, now tell me the story in the code." Jonathan, 80% of the time, we got it.

Jonathan: We're over time. Thank you so much to everybody who joined. Thank you again, Miriam, for joining me. It's been a lot of fun.

Miriam: Thank you so much again for jumping in and saying, "Yes."

[laughter]

Jonathan: Correct. [laughs] Everybody cheers until next time.

Miriam: See you next time. Bye. Thank you for joining.

[music]

Automated Voice: If you enjoy this content, but you don't want to wait a week for the next episode, subscribe to my daily mailing list at jhall.io/daily.

[00:37:24] [END OF AUDIO]